Islam vs. Christianism (i) Death of Jesus

Talk based on the Surah 2. 62 between me, a Christian from Brazil and Ayhan, a muslim friend from Turkey. I hope he will not worry to have it published: The chat deserves it!

(23:34:22) *Carol*: What Mohamed said about Jesus?

(23:34:54) (S) AYHAN (*): he said jesus, isa, was a prophet of Allah

(23:35:06) *Carol*: But he calls him Christ

(23:35:08) *Carol*: ?

(23:35:11) (S) AYHAN (*): he was not be killed by people

(23:35:23) (S) AYHAN (*): he called as a isa

(23:35:31) (S) AYHAN (*): Hz . Isa

(23:35:40) (S) AYHAN (*): we call him like that

(23:35:42) *Carol*: hm... but it says about christians

(23:35:55) (S) AYHAN (*): what you mean ?

(23:36:54) *Carol*: I mean... when it says about christians, it seems to me the word agrees with that which believes jesus/ isa is the christ

(23:37:12) (S) AYHAN (*): according to Quran, jesus was taken to the sky by Allah, therefore nobody killed him...

(23:37:17) *Carol*: hm... I didnt explained well

(23:37:24) *Carol*: I see

(23:37:35) *Carol*: But just a prophet... not the messiah?

(23:37:45) (S) AYHAN (*): but people thought that they killed jesus

(23:37:56) *Carol*: hm.... tell me better

(23:38:12) *Carol*: people thought they killed...

(23:38:13) (S) AYHAN (*): actually, they killed how do you say "disciple"

(23:38:18) *Carol*: crucified?

(23:38:34) (S) AYHAN (*): they killed a sutudent of jesus

(23:38:38) (S) AYHAN (*): student

(23:38:43) *Carol*: disciple yes...(23:38:49)

*Carol*: apostolo

(23:38:58) *Carol*: discí­pulo

(23:39:19) (S) AYHAN (*): because he finked on jesus

(23:39:19) *Carol*: dont remember how to write in english =)

(23:39:37) (S) AYHAN (*): I got it

(23:39:39) (S) AYHAN (*): disciple

(23:39:50) *Carol*: ok

(23:39:54) *Carol*: ah,...

(23:40:12) *Carol*: do you mean people would have killed a disciple in his place

(23:40:15) (S) AYHAN (*): apostle

(23:40:26) (S) AYHAN (*): yes

(23:40:36) (S) AYHAN (*): but he was a bad student

(23:40:38) *Carol*: why?

(23:40:46) *Carol*: haha...

(23:40:53) (S) AYHAN (*): he told people where jesus were

(23:41:10) (S) AYHAN (*): people will have catched the jesus

(23:41:16) *Carol*: I think that even if he deserved it, Jesus wouldnt let someone die in his place.

(23:41:20) (S) AYHAN (*): but they couldnt

(23:41:40) (S) AYHAN (*): because Allah change the face of that bad student

(23:41:46) *Carol*: Yes...

(23:41:56) (S) AYHAN (*): everbody guessed that that man is jesus

(23:42:03) *Carol*: hm...

(23:42:06) (S) AYHAN (*): but jesus was in the sky:)

(23:42:21) *Carol*: But do you think it is fair?

(23:42:34) (S) AYHAN (*): everybody catched this bad disciple

(23:42:55) (S) AYHAN (*): and crucified

(23:42:56) *Carol*: Can I tell the other version now?

(23:42:59) *Carol*: =)

(23:43:06) (S) AYHAN (*): other?

(23:43:15) (S) AYHAN (*): ok tell me

(23:43:17) *Carol*: Yes... Christian's version

(23:43:22) (S) AYHAN (*): please

(23:44:13) (S) AYHAN (*): by the way, yes I believe it is fair

(23:44:14) *Carol*: Christ died in the cross... not only for the good disciples but also in the place of the bad disciple who would have deserved it.

(23:44:24) *Carol*: Because..

(23:45:03) *Carol*: Everybody deserved to die in that cross, as everybody commited sin... and even though

(23:45:13) *Carol*: He forgived us...

(23:45:45) *Carol*: And because he forgived us and gave his life there for ours... I don t want to sin again...

(23:45:58) *Carol*: Because of His love for me...

(23:46:10) *Carol*: That's my christian story

(23:46:21) *Carol*: And..

(23:46:39) (S) AYHAN (*): carol

(23:46:41) *Carol*: He ressurrectec... cause God make the dead alive

(23:46:50) *Carol*: as in the surah

(23:47:50) A mensagem pode não ter sido enviada porque o tempo limite foi atingido:as in the surah

(23:47:52) (S) AYHAN (*): you think that jesus was killed by the other people

(23:47:52) (S) AYHAN (*): ??

(23:47:52) (S) AYHAN (*): yes ?

(23:48:03) *Carol*: No...

(23:48:05) A mensagem não pode ser enviada porque um erro ocorreu no switchboard:No...

(23:48:55) ayhangullu8@hotmail.com mudou seu apelido para (S) AYHAN (*).

(23:49:02) (S) AYHAN (*): :)

(23:49:23) *Carol*: I think jesus was killed by the jews and the romans (believers and gentils)... and you and me... because of our sin

(23:49:25) (S) AYHAN (*): did you see my last question

(23:50:09) (S) AYHAN (*): interesting

(23:50:11) (S) AYHAN (*): I mean

(23:50:30) (S) AYHAN (*): jesus was killed because of your sin

(23:50:31) (S) AYHAN (*): ???

(23:51:33) *Carol*: Sure... because of my sin too... to save me. For the people who lived and who would still live and believe in him

(23:52:19) (S) AYHAN (*): first question: do you beleive in God (Allah)

(23:52:37) *Carol*: Yes

(23:52:40) (S) AYHAN (*): what kind of God ?

(23:52:53) (S) AYHAN (*): let me tell you

(23:52:59) (S) AYHAN (*): powerful God

(23:53:05) (S) AYHAN (*): merciful God

(23:53:06) *Carol*: Hm... There are many things to say to answer it

(23:53:09) *Carol*: Yes...

(23:53:21) (S) AYHAN (*): God has endless power

(23:53:23) (S) AYHAN (*): right?

(23:53:24) *Carol*: Merciful, powerful...

(23:53:26) *Carol*: right

(23:53:32) (S) AYHAN (*): good

(23:53:35) (S) AYHAN (*): even so good

(23:53:49) (S) AYHAN (*): ok now let me tell you this

(23:54:22) (S) AYHAN (*): do you think that Allah let people kill Allah' prophet????????

(23:54:30) (S) AYHAN (*): dont be hurry

(23:54:43) (S) AYHAN (*): read this question a few times

(23:55:02) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah's prophet***

(23:55:31) (S) AYHAN (*): you were talking about endless power

(23:55:51) (S) AYHAN (*): you were talking about Allah knows everthing

(23:56:10) (S) AYHAN (*): if Allah has endless great power

(23:56:22) (S) AYHAN (*): if Allah can do everthing what it wants

(23:56:31) (S) AYHAN (*): any

(23:56:52) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah let the people kill its prophet

(23:56:57) (S) AYHAN (*): of course no

(23:57:12) *Carol*: I will answer now

(23:57:12) (S) AYHAN (*): he wasnt killed by people

(23:57:16) (S) AYHAN (*): ok

(23:59:19) *Carol*: He gave his son... not a prophet. Because He wanted to give life to this people so they wouldnt die in theirs sins... Because He loved even the sinner.

(23:59:48) *Carol*: And He knew it since the beginning.

(23:59:59) (S) AYHAN (*): from Adam to Hz Muhammed , Allah didnt let the people kill Allah's prophets never ever

(07-09-2009 00:00:27) *Carol*: But Ayhan... the story doesnt end in his death

(00:00:32) (S) AYHAN (*): why would Allah have let people to kill him??

(00:01:11) *Carol*: because he could be victorious in love throught that

- - -

Islam vs. Christianism (ii) Isa, Prophet or Son of God

First Part: Conception of Meryem
(third book of Surah)

(00:02:23) (S) AYHAN (*): carol first of all this is wrong

(00:02:34) *Carol*: =)

(00:02:40) *Carol*: What?

(00:02:41) (S) AYHAN (*): jesus is not son of Allah

(00:02:50) (S) AYHAN (*): yes

(00:03:17) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah is not a man

(00:04:11) *Carol*: I believe He is son of God, because He could not win if he wasn't...

(00:04:36) *Carol*: And he could not know God's character so deeply...

(00:04:40) (S) AYHAN (*): win?

(00:05:22) *Carol*: Win... because He never sinned, until the end... even when people hated him, they could love them until this point.

(00:05:43) *Carol*: * he could love them until this point

(00:05:57) *Carol*: * until the end

(00:06:05) (S) AYHAN (*): carol all prophets of Allah know Allah' character so deeply

(00:06:21) (S) AYHAN (*): it doesnt mean all pf them are son of Allah

(00:06:22) *Carol*: But they dont know Allah Himself

(00:06:22) (S) AYHAN (*): right?

(00:06:39) *Carol*: Alll the He is, isnt it?

(00:06:44) (S) AYHAN (*): how dont theey know Allah???????

(00:07:17) (S) AYHAN (*): I am talking about prophets of Allah

(00:07:25) *Carol*: Ayhan... I dont think you can find a word that tell me they knew Allah completely.

(00:07:42) (S) AYHAN (*): all of them know Allah's character so deeply

(00:08:06) *Carol*: Because if you find so, we are not talking about the same God I guess.

(00:08:23) *Carol*: deeply yes...

(00:08:29) *Carol*: but totally

(00:08:36) (S) AYHAN (*): I tell you what

(00:08:44) *Carol*: =)

(00:10:01) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah created evething in the cosmos and creates still

(00:10:14) (S) AYHAN (*): it has a endless power

(00:10:15) *Carol*: Yes... I believe so.

(00:10:36) (S) AYHAN (*): it is not in the sky or under the earth

(00:10:47) *Carol*: (L)

(00:10:50) (S) AYHAN (*): it is not on the right or on the right

(00:10:59) *Carol*: left

(00:11:00) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah is everhwere

(00:11:06) (S) AYHAN (*): everywhere

(00:11:13) (S) AYHAN (*): left*

(00:11:17) *Carol*: =)

(00:11:34) *Carol*: Right =)

(00:11:52) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah knows see and hear everthing

(00:12:24) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah is merciful and love its believer

(00:12:41) *Carol*: He is sovereign...

(00:12:48) (S) AYHAN (*): therefore Allah doesnt have a son

(00:13:06) (S) AYHAN (*): I will tell you what

(00:13:12) (S) AYHAN (*): think about

(00:13:28) (S) AYHAN (*): I reall believe in God who has a son

(00:13:29) *Carol*: =) hey... did you learn logics at school? I didnt find its sense

(00:13:33) (S) AYHAN (*): dont

(00:13:47) (S) AYHAN (*): I DONT reallY believe in God who has a son

(00:13:55) *Carol*: I know that

(00:14:01) (S) AYHAN (*): I will not

(00:14:07) (S) AYHAN (*): you know why

(00:14:18) *Carol*: No

(00:14:38) (S) AYHAN (*): it is gonna be redecilous

(00:14:48) (S) AYHAN (*): ridiculous

(00:14:49) *Carol*: Is it...

(00:14:59) (S) AYHAN (*): carol

(00:15:01) (S) AYHAN (*): please

(00:15:07) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah gived a brain

(00:15:11) *Carol*: Ayhan.. Isa is son of ?

(00:15:13) (S) AYHAN (*): think some

(00:15:20) (S) AYHAN (*): noooooooooooo

(00:15:22) (S) AYHAN (*): of course

(00:15:24) (S) AYHAN (*): please

(00:15:28) *Carol*: tell me

(00:15:31) *Carol*: please

(00:15:36) (S) AYHAN (*): carol

(00:15:52) *Carol*: Because I read it in the surah

(00:15:53) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah cannot be a human right

(00:16:07) (S) AYHAN (*): you read what ?

(00:16:09) *Carol*: So first ask y question...

(00:16:21) *Carol*: tell me whom Isa is son of.

(00:16:36) *Carol*: Acordding to your Quran

(00:16:55) (S) AYHAN (*): according to Quran isa is son of Meryem

(00:16:59) *Carol*: and?

(00:17:14) *Carol*: Meryem and?

(00:17:16) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah ordered the Cebrail angel

(00:17:21) (S) AYHAN (*): wait

(00:17:25) (S) AYHAN (*): I am telling you

(00:17:29) (S) AYHAN (*): you are so impatient

(00:17:33) (S) AYHAN (*): be patient

(00:17:35) *Carol*: =)

(00:17:38) (S) AYHAN (*): :)

(00:17:42) *Carol*: =D

(00:17:44) *Carol*: Ok

(00:19:15) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah says that in our book

(00:19:34) *Carol*: (F)

(00:19:37) (S) AYHAN (*): Allah send Cebrail angel to meryem

(00:19:43) (S) AYHAN (*): thank you

(00:19:46) *Carol*: =)

(00:19:59) (S) AYHAN (*): you know cebrail anymore right ?

(00:20:09) *Carol*: Yes... we call him Gabriel

(00:20:16) (S) AYHAN (*): ok

(00:20:46) (S) AYHAN (*): Cebrail blow out something

(00:20:51) (S) AYHAN (*): to meryem

(00:20:55) *Carol*: something?????????

(00:21:07) (S) AYHAN (*): it is so special something

(00:21:11) *Carol*: can you look at the surah

(00:21:17) (S) AYHAN (*): ok

(00:21:21) *Carol*: and tell me what is written

(00:21:45) *Carol*: so special something... =)

(00:25:19) *Carol*: By the way... I need a Quran... =) maybe online, if it is possible...

(00:25:32) (S) AYHAN (*): sure

(00:25:58) (S) AYHAN (*): http://www.kuran.gen.tr/?x=s_main&kid=14

(00:26:06) (S) AYHAN (*): it is in english

(00:26:23) *Carol*: Thank you (R)

(00:26:57) (S) AYHAN (*): http://www.kuran.gen.tr/?x=s_main&kid=24

(00:27:04) (S) AYHAN (*): in your language

(00:29:10) (S) AYHAN (*): do you read it in your language

(00:29:27) *Carol*: Yes... I'm reading now

(00:29:53) *Carol*: I'm looking for that part...

(00:31:53) *Carol*: Imram 45, 47

(00:32:18) *Carol*: (I don't know the right way to point the verse...)

(00:32:31) (S) AYHAN (*): imram

(00:32:38) (S) AYHAN (*): in your language ??

(00:32:57) *Carol*: yes... in mine it says Imram =/

(00:33:08) *Carol*: Imram family

(00:33:26) (S) AYHAN (*): what is the number of it ?

(00:33:59) *Carol*: 45 and 47

(00:34:15) (S) AYHAN (*): 45.surah

(00:34:16) (S) AYHAN (*): ??

(00:35:49) *Carol*: Hm...the third book of surah, maybe... "The family of Imram

(00:36:24) (S) AYHAN (*): ok

(00:37:02) *Carol*: http://www.kuran.gen.tr/?x=s_main&y=s_middle&kid=14&sid=3

(00:37:29) (S) AYHAN (*): I knew this surah

(00:37:39) *Carol*: =)

(00:37:43) (S) AYHAN (*): but there is no word about what something is

(00:37:49) *Carol*: yes...

(00:38:02) *Carol*: In 45 it says Christ Jesus...

(00:38:09) *Carol*: In 47...

(00:38:37) (S) AYHAN (*): carol in english says like that

(00:38:39) *Carol*: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so; Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!"

(00:39:09) (S) AYHAN (*): but original it says isa

(00:39:27) *Carol*: Hm... you can send me your version

(00:39:33) (S) AYHAN (*): in arabic I mean

(00:39:33) (S) AYHAN (*): you got it

(00:41:20) (S) AYHAN (*): actualy in the Quran, it is not said Cebrail

(00:41:34) (S) AYHAN (*): it is said that it was a soul

(00:41:49) *Carol*: a soul... what soul?

(00:42:14) (S) AYHAN (*): there is no exact information about it in the Quran

(00:42:24) (S) AYHAN (*): or certain

(00:42:28) *Carol*: Ayhan, just tell me who gave life to Jesus in the surah 47

(00:43:02) (S) AYHAN (*): carol

(00:43:05) *Carol*: Because no man touched Meryem... who did gave life to Jesus through her

(00:43:10) (S) AYHAN (*): I read this surah

(00:43:25) (S) AYHAN (*): as you see there is no certain information

(00:43:28) (S) AYHAN (*): about it

(00:43:33) (S) AYHAN (*): thereis only soul

(00:43:36) *Carol*: I see it clearly as you do

(00:43:43) *Carol*: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so; Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!" 48.

(00:43:59) (S) AYHAN (*): Yeah I read it just now

(00:44:22) *Carol*: Ok...

(00:44:55) (S) AYHAN (*): is there any question

(00:45:00) (S) AYHAN (*): in your mind